Tracy Hazzard – “Binge-Worthy” from Thrive LOUD Podcast with Lou Diamond

Many podcasts never make it far. As more and more shows come on, how do you make yourself stand out and keep your listeners’ attention? In this episode, Tracy Hazzard joins Lou Diamond from Thrive LOUD Podcast to spill what it takes to become “Binge-Worthy.” Perhaps start by finding your ideal customer. They could be anywhere in this vast social media world. Go to the place you’re most comfortable with and be your most authentic self. Do you want more binge-worthy advice? Join Tracy as she shares more on how to not only find your audience but also be seen and heard!

Listen to the podcast here

Welcome to another episode of Thrive LOUD with Lou Diamond, connecting you to the most inspiring and amazing people that are thriving each and every day. We are here in a special Thrive LOUD episode with someone who’s on the program because she is a rockstar. We’re going to talk all things about podcasts. If you want to launch your podcast, if you need strategies around your business, whether it’s video, audio, getting your brand out there in a noisy digital world, nobody clears it up and makes it cleaner than the CEO and Founder of Podetize.

She’s a former Inc. columnist and she’s pretty awesome. She also hosts a bunch of podcast shows, most notably, The Binge Factor, which I was on before. I was talking with her that I probably provided way too much information on that show. I’m going to flip the tables and flip the script so that she can provide as much information. Please welcome Tracy Hazzard to the show. Tracy, how are you?

I’m awesome. I’m glad to be here.

I’m excited to catch up because you’re a superstar human being doing 6,000 things at once. The fact that I was able to get you at any point in time is amazing. That’s a good thing but let’s do this. What are we up to right now in the world of Tracy because you got lots of balls juggling in the air?

The thing is that we’re all struggling with this exact same problem that I’ve got to be the content creator for my business. I told you before that I had an investor meeting. I’m out there seeking investment and growth for my business, but I got to be my content creator and my chief marketing officer. Even though I have a business with 84 staff members worldwide, I still have a lot of hats to wear. That’s the case often with the CEOs of all kinds of companies right now.

Tracy, what’s your favorite hat to wear? Which hat do you like wearing the most?

I love the interviewer hat. I love interviewing because it feeds into my curiosity. I’m curious about people and how things work. I’m researching while I’m doing it. All of the nuggets that you shared on my show, I’m going to use again and again, whether I’m strategizing with clients or developing products within my company. I’m going to use that information. I synthesize it into something. Being able to wear that hat has huge foundational importance to my business and it’s my favorite one. That makes it even easier.

What do you think right now is the biggest problem that your clients are facing?

They’re hidden experts. They all feel hidden. Their voices are not getting heard enough. They are not being seen enough. They are not being found enough. This is the problem that everyone feels that I’m not getting enough visibility and enough visibility with the right people. That matters to them as well.

Do you think most of your clients even know who the right people are?

We have an idea of what we think they are. I used to develop a lot of products for mass-market retail and there’s no way you ever knew who bought your product. You had no sense of that. You had to go in there with this premise of who my right ideal buyer is. What we forget so often is that they’re screened through the platforms that we utilize. If I were selling into Costco, that’s a different type of person than who is going into Walmart. If I didn’t design my product differently for those two places, I wouldn’t be successful.

We now have that same problem where we think we’re putting content out there for Instagram, but is that the right place? Maybe all of our clients are over in LinkedIn. What we produce on Instagram isn’t good when we repost it on LinkedIn. It doesn’t work and land in the same way. We do have to think about our content as a product and an output. We also have to think of the channel that is going through to reach those right people we believe are our audience.

I have found at least from my program that we have two spaces that our audience shows up the most at. It’s interesting because I wouldn’t have thought these two would be comparable. One is LinkedIn and the other is Instagram, which seems to be a tremendous driver of awareness of our episodes or those stories. It seems to be the thing that we’re able to connect the most frequently or the most casually. I’m not even sure which is the right way of looking at that.

I don’t even address the fact that we also do stuff on Twitter and Facebook, even on YouTube as well. To the clients of yours that are producing this content, how do you help them figure out the medium that is the best channel for them to target themselves on? That’s something that everyone is having a problem with, at least in my mind and in my world. Do you see that too?

Binge-Worthy: If we’re not taking our content and bringing it back to the one place where we provide the most value, which should be your website, then we’re not utilizing those services.

Part of the problem is that we go for a place that we know. If I’m comfortable in Instagram but my clients aren’t on Instagram, that’s not going to make a lot of sense. I always look at my existing client base first if you have one. If you don’t have one, then you’re going to flip this. If you have a client base, go and find out what platform they use the most. What one do they log into every single day, more than once a day? What are they constantly using? I’m in a business-to-business model. In a business-to-business model, where are they hosting their own groups? Where do they have to play for their own business?

They might be wrong about that, but they’re already playing in that world. You want to match yourself to them. For me, that has always been LinkedIn. It works out well for us because it is my favorite place. If you don’t know who your audience is, go to the place you’re the most comfortable and authentically yourself. If you don’t have a team who posts there, you show up there and you post. It makes it easier for you to start understanding who that audience is and who’s reaching out, commenting and engaging with you. If that is over an Instagram, we want to make sure that engagement is turning into something.

With LinkedIn, I find that if you’re getting direct messages and someone is reaching out to you, you have an understanding that they are there for you. In Instagram, just because they’re commenting and hearting your posts doesn’t mean they’re listening to it. If you’re not seeing the boost on the listening side to your podcast or you’re not seeing someone click through to your content and come to your website, then the engagement isn’t turning into something. While that’s not bad, you want engagement, but is it turning into what you’re looking for?

I’ve had this argument that it doesn’t matter to me if your program has twenty listeners and a good percentage of those twenty listeners are your clients. It’s great. Talk to them every single day. It’s like having an audience in your paying community. If you had thousands of listeners and you didn’t know who they were, I would prefer the smaller situation, but everyone is always trying to grow. You’re trying to grow and keep up with the business. Finding that fine line between balancing delivering on what you are intended to do with your program and your communication, and connecting to the audience that is going to give you the most value. I want to flip this to you. You have a wide net of who you help. How do you narrow down on how you help the people and the message that you get out there?

In my interview on The Binge Factor, you’re hitting all these great podcasts folks and it gives you exposure. You have a system of all the shows on Podetize that you do for helping to get their content in the right way and getting themselves launched. Can you cast as wide a net as you’d like or do you have an idea of which lanes I need to have to plan?

We’ve been doing this for a while, so I’ve been able to narrow it down and see what works. The reality is that we could go to anyone. Anyone who’s thinking about being a podcaster is a lot harder to find though. You’d have to cast a very wide net in order to get to anyone who might be thinking about being a podcaster. It’s a whole lot easier for me to find someone who’s already a podcaster and speak directly to that because I can find them. They put podcaster in their title on LinkedIn. They typically talk about their show all the time. What I found is that because that’s an easier audience to identify, it’s also easier for me to structure my content to be tailored to those people. Those people will share my content and my company to the aspiring.

The aspiring will find you naturally because if they’re sharing and saying, “I heard this great tip from Tracy on The Binge Factor and I’m a putting it in my show,” then everyone is saying, “This guy who I think is great and amazing at podcasting has this person who he models, then I want to know who that person is.” It cascades into growth in terms of your audience.

I feel like there are a lot of people out there selling courses, startups, how-tos and do all of that. There are a lot of people and junk out there, to be honest with you. It’s been there, done that once. I hate those. At some point in our business, I decided that we weren’t going to speak to that. We were going to go ahead and say, “If you’re serious about podcasting and videocasting, then we’re the place for you.” We’re going to continue to provide this top-level content that is going to attract the best of the best so that when they become our clients, and they love what we do and provide for them, they refer us to someone else.

That’s where we get our business. Ninety percent of our business comes from referrals from other podcasters. There’s a reward system built into our platform for that but it doesn’t matter. We get them anyway. We get some people who, “I’m not your client yet. I’m still working on formulating my show, but I’m sending you these three people in advance of that.” They don’t even ask, “Can I have credit for them?” We give them credit for it anyway but they do it because they want to pay back the value you’ve brought them.

I want to talk about two mediums here because you would be the expert on this. I am curious to know the answer to this. We’re doing both now. We are doing the audio podcast and the video stream now. There is more of this each and every day. I don’t know necessarily if everybody is watching or listening as much as maybe they could. How do you help video and podcasters figure out the space to plan? Even you’re trying to figure out the right space to plan as you have content in your programs and shows, and the ways to do this. What are some of the exercises that you work with your clients to figure out if this is going to be a good way to maximize growth, change, or optimize what you’re doing?

Every business is different. I like to play on multi-levels within what is this going to do for my business and make sure that each level is doing something to either take time away so that you say your time is most optimized. It’s being efficient with that time. If I need to fill my website with blogs, then I want to do one thing that gets me that blog at the end of the day. For me, it’s also articles. I look at that path as one direct thing. How can I do one thing and get as much out of it as possible?

I like to start in the video. Not everybody is comfortable in video and that’s okay, but there might be a video play for them because what we find is that not a lot of percentage of video watchers watch the video. They might listen to it but they’re not actively watching it. That’s because most videos that are put out now are talking heads. They’re not necessarily these intense visual, beautiful crafted Disney movies. Now we’re getting fancy.

Most people aren’t doing things that are dynamic and interesting, and that’s okay. We’re comfortable with it but we got YouTube on. It’s easier to pop that on and listen to it while I’m working on my computer and doing something else. It’s convenient. When we think about that, we don’t know how they’re consuming it. Why not create an audiogram? It’s an audio wave. There’s a static image and we’re giving it to them in the place that they care about. They happen to be YouTube watchers and listeners and that is a thing, to be a YouTube listener. We want them to listen to the content all the way through.

That’s our goal and that’s where podcasting is amazing because we have listeners that listen all the way through. That’s why we call them binge-listeners. They don’t miss a single episode when they find you. They binge on everything you have and go through all of your catalogs. They feel like they know you and they want to know you more. They want more from you. That’s when they come back to your website. If you then haven’t filled this stuff into your website and made your website as rich as your podcast, that’s where you’ve lost something in the translation. If I can do something like videos to audio, to blog, to social shares, and I’ve got all that accomplished for me, all my content is being pushed out into multimedia and done in all those places. What’s the next level of thing that I can do for my business?

Binge-Worthy: People go to a place that they are familiar with. If you are comfortable on Instagram, but your clients are not on there, that won’t make any sense. Go where your existing client base is.

My show is geared so I can meet great podcasters like you, Lou, so that I can get to know you and build my network of other podcasters, get some great research information, but I also get a lot of clients from doing those interviews. That translation in that process is also a networking and lead generation model. Now I’ve brought multi-levels into everything that I do. To answer your original question, that’s the ideal because we’re so busy now. Can what we do achieve as much as possible if we’re strategic about it and utilize the best tactics to get it out there?

The best part about the multifaceted, both video and audio, is it’s just content. We can manipulate the content however we see fit. There will be a component of this video that we’ll make into a sizzle reel at one point or another. That’ll be like a best of or it’ll be a special feature featuring Tracy when her episode comes out on Thrive LOUD. It’ll be that type of a thing that we can package and we have the option. If you do the video, you at least have the optionality to use it. As a speaker, I’ve learned this for a long time. Whenever you have an opportunity to film something, you capture it on film because all of those assets can be put into whatever it is, the best of one moment or something cool.

It’s the same thing with your platform. If you’re a podcaster, videocaster or YouTuber, as much of that familiarity and all the ways that you can access and tap into people, for whatever your end goal is, to sell a service or getting them to be a client of yours, connect with them, market, network, whatever it might be. It’s important that you recognize that each one of these touchpoints is going to connect with someone and you covered every single one of them.

I now want to cover some things about you. Tell me the thing that you have learned in the hosting and the interview seats, something that a guest has provided, that someone has given you information that was like, “That was a cool nugget that I’ve never thought of.” You get a lot of them. Things that you’ve heard of because I know you’ve got a bunch somewhere in the tip of your brain.

One of the things that we don’t do enough of is when those a-has happen for ourselves, we don’t tell the audience. That’s the first thing that I always coach my clients and I make sure that I do. I have a recap at the end of my show where I’ll say, “I’m going to try this. This was cool. This was a great idea. This is something that you all should pay attention to.” I’ll go, “Time out, stop. Did you hear what she said? Are you listening to this?” I like to do that because often people are looking to you as the expert when you’re hosting. If you forget that you have a curation job or a job to point out those wonderful nuggets, then you’re not serving your audience as well. It is my job to make sure and point them out. When they happen, I also like to try them.

I like to research, see how it’s working, see what’s happening over there, and see if I can make that work for us as well. One thing that happened was Kimmy Seltzer who has the Charisma Quotient, which is a fabulous show. She’s had it for a long time. She has three different style episodes and I can tell you how many people I refer to listen to her show, not for her because she’s amazing, but for the format of the show, because of the three types of episodes she does. What she does that’s great is she has on-air coaching and it is her third type of episode. She does about twenty minutes with someone. She’s helping them through a problem and it’s free on air. She has an application form that you fill out.

She’s a relationship coach. These are some sensitive subjects that they are talking about. I started to incorporate on-air coaching in December 2020 as a test. I got six of my clients to come to do it. Those that have been with me for a while. We’re ready for that leveling up strategy calls. As I always say, “I want to keep that high level of interest.” I don’t want someone who just started because then we’ll be covering all those newbie things again and I wanted to cover the advanced stuff.

People who had 100 episodes or more. I went in and I did an on-air strategy session. They were so well received that I have now incorporated it into a regular part of the monthly episodes that I do. Sometimes I do these hybrids where I say, “If I have a suggestion for you, are you comfortable with me saying that on air?” It ends up being a combination of they’re an expert in something, but they usually say somewhere along the lines like, “I wish I had more listeners. I wish I had a strategy for increasing listeners.” I can say, “Are you open to some mentorship for that right at this moment?” I can give them some suggestions for their particular show right at that moment. I now have done a few of these hybrids and they’re even better received because we get the story and the nudges.

Kimmy came to New York and we did home and home. We did it in a cool place down in the Bowery. We’ll give her a shout out here for it. We both did each of our episodes and it was cool because it had this ambient noise in the background. People were buzzing. It was like a real buzz and thinking about it. This was way before COVID. This was a long time ago but it was effective. She does this pre-planned bio opening. She does a whole little monologue and then it bleeds into the conversation. It’s pretty cool stuff.

What’s brilliant about it is she’s bringing on other experts that could potentially sell to her audience, which is good for her because you’re sharing audiences. Now their audience becomes her audience and they might like her better. She’s structuring the conversation and taking control of the topic so that person can’t run away with it and start overselling and doing things. That’s a brilliant structure. She’s done that and got it refined to the nth degree. I love the way she does it.

Tell me what’s going on, the fun stuff that you got going on. Your episode is coming out. We’re going to have back-to-back Tracy episodes. That’s a lot of Tracy for everybody. I think they can handle it. Are there plans for the summer? Are you getting out? Are things opening up a little bit for you?

I started traveling. I’ve got speaking engagements. I’m starting a little slower, one a month. Let’s see how it goes and we’ll go from there. I’ve got more going on and already pre-planned. I do see a lot of opening up happening. I also have a lot of virtual going on where people have found that the virtual is working and drawing a larger audience for them. It’s convenient for me. I can attend more events that I wouldn’t be able to do otherwise and serve some smaller communities because of it. I’m happy that those are combining. I’m looking forward to my girls being done with school because this hybrid school stuff has been a little trying, but we’re headed into that. We’d been outside all the time. It’s warm here in California. We’re lucky that we’ve had a warm year, so we’ve been out at the pool all constantly. I’m looking forward to that.

We finally got an 80-degree day and for late April 2021, that’s ridiculous for us. We’re excited in the tri-state area. I will be outside at some point. I want you to share all the places people can find you. Things you have coming up, programs, offers and things like that. I want to do that plug section here. We’ve done that a couple of times, you and I, but let’s let these readers have a chance to connect with you. Does that sound cool?

Sounds fine. If you want to connect with me personally or you just want to connect up or follow me, the best place to do that is on LinkedIn because I do most of my own personal posting. There are a couple of messages that come from my team there, but most of the part of everything that’s out there is chosen or put out by me. You can get a better taste of who I am by going on LinkedIn and finding Tracy Hazzard. You’ll find me there. You can also go to TheBingeFactor.com and you can check out my podcast. At Podetize.com, we have a podcast called Feed Your Brand over there. That’s all going to be revamped and reorganized to make it easy for you to find the exact content you’re looking for about podcasting. If you’re looking for advanced tactics, guesting or all different kinds of things, it’s all going to be reorganized for you. You’ll be able to find that there.

Binge-Worthy: If we’re not taking our content and bringing it back to the one place where we provide the most value, which should be your website, then we’re not utilizing those services.

Podetize.com is the easiest place for you to get in touch with my team or find out anything you want about podcasting. If you’re interested in taking a course on how to podcast and to do it yourself, we have a free course. I give it away free all the time because I don’t want you to get mired up in the learning part of podcasting. There’s so much to do with recording and doing your podcast. Do that part. You shouldn’t be spending money on the course itself. We give away exactly what we do for our clients in our podcast course. We call it the Bootcamp. I’ll have to say it’s a bit intense. Those are the places to reach us.

I’m trying to figure out where we can go with Tracy here because she had me on her program and she’s been on a Thrive LOUD episode, which we get into the specific to this. Let’s go off the reservation here. I want to talk about the things that we don’t like. I’m saying, “We.” I’m not even saying, “You.” What are the things that we don’t like about what’s happening in the podcasting space or in the connecting space?

I want to give this caveat. You hit something interesting in the interview in the interview, which there are a lot of these people offering courses and some of this stuff is passe, garbage or whatever. Things you’re seeing that you’re like, “I can’t believe they’re still doing this. I can’t believe that’s even been done at all.” I’m curious. I’ve got a couple and you got a couple, let’s share both. Let’s do that. I’ll show you yours. You show me mine. Tell me what you’ve been seeing that you’re not happy with.

I’m disappointed in Spotify and Apple going out on the subscription side of things. For those of you who haven’t heard it, they’ve announced that they’re having subscription programs. Apple’s going to take 30% of your subscriber money. You can choose to have a premium podcast and sell it for $20 a month or $20 for a year. You get to decide the price but they’re going to take 30% of that. Spotify is going to do the same thing but they’re offering it for free. They’re not going to take a cut for the first two years. That’s how they’ve decided to go about it. At the end of the day, they are not going to share the subscribers with you.

You’re giving them your premium content, your premium show, this thing that you are going to put extra value into in order to achieve the value of it, and you don’t get to know who’s listening. You don’t get direct access to the listeners. It’s in the contract already. I’ve reviewed every line item in it and I’m frustrated by that because at the end of the day, if I’m bringing value to Apple and Spotify, I should get some value back for that. Otherwise, why even bother to do it? Why don’t I just have my premium podcast on my website? I can.

Can we put ourselves in a position to not have it there? I’m thinking Goodpods, for example. I know you can listen to your show on that app. That’s not charging you anything or there are other places that you can direct people to listen to.

At the end of the day, if someone’s not giving me a direct connection to someone who’s paying for my service in some way, shape, form or paying for my content, then don’t do it. I don’t see the value in it and I can’t advise my clients to do it, especially because at the end of the day, my clients’ values are on their website anyway. They’re creating membership groups and private podcasts. They can do all of that themselves. If you’re taking all the time to drive the traffic to it, how are you going to market for it? Are you going to market for Spotify and Apple? No. They should be marketing for you. If they’re not going to do that, then that’s not a value either.

They should be paying us is what I’m making out of it. Jim Taylor was one of my long-time mentors. He was the former head of marketing of Gateway computers. He’s one of the greatest marketing minds and he had this idea which was how important brands are to you. The reality is that Mercedes, for example, should pay you to be their customer and to stay their customer. His general point was it’s expensive to lose a customer that you have that’s constantly doing business with you that it’s worth it to either give incentives or a program.

Imagine having a SaaS model back in the day for buying cars. What you do is you have a lease and then you could turn the car in, then they try and roll you over to something new. The reality of his point was they should give extreme discounts to those people that already are customers for that particular product.

This goes to the point of what you’re hitting about. This is a community of people. They know Tracy and Lou. They listen to this show and they absorb this content. This is the type of stuff that you hope that they are absorbing and are able to say, “These are the people we want.” Other players like Spotify and Apple are coming and they’re saying, “We want to have a piece of this thing.” It’s the exact opposite. It should be the other way round. If you want to use their platform for it, they should be paying you. That would be my two cents.

This is the thing that often, we give away all of our authority. We give away our authority to Facebook, Instagram, and all these platforms that are not helping us, at the end of the day. We think they are but they’re not helping us connect more with the right people. It’s a lot of work to do that. It is our content that is driving that or it wouldn’t tap into their algorithms. We’re doing the right thing. They’re not doing the right thing for us. We have to keep remembering we’re in control of that. We’re not taking our content and bringing it back to the one place where we provide the most value, which should be your website. It should be your business, wherever your business is located.

If we’re not bringing them back to that place, then we’re not utilizing those services. We should not be staying on TikTok and YouTube. We should make sure that they rev up because what will happen to all those YouTubers out there when the algorithm shifts and they lost all of their people, or they turned off all the comments and all of a sudden, they couldn’t have a connection to their audience anymore? You’re at the whim of those platforms. Take control of your authority. Make sure you have it for yourself at the end of the day.

Here’s my big complaint. I know this is going to hit the same thing for you. As you know, I host multiple programs. I have lots of shows and I am bombarded, as are probably you, with people who represent other guests on programs. They have guesting services where they’re going out and they’re trying to offer these guest services to get them on the podcast. I hate getting these emails of them giving me full multipage, I have to scroll, I can’t even tell you how long, on why do they have such a great guest, without them saying why the guests will be good for my specific podcast. This happens every day, multiple times a day. First of all, it does happen to you. I’m sure it does.

What I cannot understand, and I want the people and the world to understand this, is that if you are trying to get someone on this show, and we have a lot of listeners and great people like Tracy. She’s on this show because she thrives loud. She clicks all the boxes of all the reasons she thrives in her life, business and passion. Why our listeners would care is because she’s going to make their business, entrepreneurship or whatever it is better.

Somebody shows me, “I have a woman who wrote a book on the pains you’re suffering for during pregnancy and how you’re going to recover for that.” That’s probably not my audience to come to me and this happens unbelievably. I’m like, “How do we tap into this stuff?” It is unbelievable but these people are going out and sending out messages proactively to say, “We want to have you on fill in the blank podcast show.” Please stop it, people.

We have the shotgun mass mailing approach and we treat email the same way. Someone’s going through and downloading all of the shows that are in the business category or whatever category of something like listen-notes and trolling all the email addresses for all of those. They’re sending out a mass mailing without any care for its conversion rate. I can’t stand that. It’s not the way we work. I’m trying hard because I’m a numbers girl at the end of the day. I want high engagement, high conversion, and I’m always looking for ways to finesse that to get to the 4% that you have to do to make that happen. Where is that going to happen for me?

We developed a whole system behind the scenes for filtering the shows and finding the right shows. Now I’m working on how do we get that pitching to be not all about me but about you, the host and the audience. To make sure that those things are coming into the pitch process so that it can be highly effective. Your list is better, to begin with, because half the time, I have shows that I only take podcasters on my show. To get hourly emails or messages on LinkedIn that says, “I’m an author. I want to be on your show,” it’s not going to happen. You’re wasting both of our time.

How can we make that highly effective? By having a better list and then doing a better job of being outwardly focused and being focused on where we’re landing and who we’re landing to with our messaging. It’s the old media model. People still think that podcasting is radio or entertainment. It’s not. It is digital marketing. If you think it otherwise, you’re wrong. You’re sadly mistaken. Ninety percent of what is out there is digital marketing focused. The 10% of shows, you’ll never get on anyway.

My favorite story about that is I shouldn’t complain. I at least have guests on the show, as do you. I know people that don’t have guests on their shows who get the same thing that says, “We’d love to this person to be a guest on your program.” We don’t have guests on the show. I’m like, “Are you kidding?” That’s the annoyance that’s out there. We can go on all day and complain but nobody wants to read to our complaints. I figured it’d be a fun thing to do. Tracy Hazzard, we’ve given all the plugs and where it’d be. I could chat with you all day. We can do this all the time. We have a lot of people interacting here and we will never do this again. Hopefully, this was fun for you. Thanks for taking some time. It’s always a pleasure to have you on the show.

Thank you, Lou. I love coming to your show.

To all our folks out there, thank you for joining us. Until next time. Keep thriving onward, upward and remember to be brief, be bright, be gone.

Important Links:

• Thrive LOUD
• Podetize
• The Binge Factor
• LinkedIn – Thrive LOUD
• Instagram – Thrive LOUD
• Twitter – Thrive LOUD
• Facebook – Thrive LOUD
• YouTube – Thrive LOUD
• my interview – Lou Diamond on The Binge Factor
• Charisma Quotient
• LinkedIn – Tracy Hazzard
• Feed Your Brand
• Bootcamp
• Goodpods

Watch the episode here:

Thrive LOUD Podcast  With Lou Diamond